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Expert
Posts: 330
Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Message 11 of 23 (696 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

You turn on and off HDMI CEC at all devices that support it. ARC can ve turned off at the TV and soundbar. No need to do either right now.

I will research those SACDs and get back to you. Honestly, I think something is hosed up with the X800's firmware.
Enthusiast
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-21-2017
Message 12 of 23 (594 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Hi Random V:

 

I realize you do not work for Sony, but do you think I am going to hear anything further from a Sony represeentative, either Chris or someone else?

 

Thanks

Expert
Posts: 330
Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Message 13 of 23 (522 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Sorry for my own delayed response.  I did some research along the way.  First, you're not the only one with this problem.  Next, the X800 should be capable of sending a compatible, standard LPCM output when told to do so in the settings.  SACD output to LPCM isn't some exotic thing.  My receiver can play back DSD files but will not accept a Bitstream DSD feed via HDMI.  The standard workaround is LPCM via HDMI.  I still haven gotten the HDMI spec information I was looking for to figure out the issue.

 

Chris has gone on and I don't think we'll ever hear from him again.  He read the script and patted himself on the back.  I need details on the HDMI specification to challenge how Sony is handling LPCM output from SACDs.  I might have move my oppo player to my HT-XT1 to debunk the Sony dodge.  It's clumsy to do so so I was trying to avoid that.  Otherwise, I have an old samsung BD player that doesn't support SACDs but has a HDMI in I can send a LPCM stream from the Oppo and and verifies it works.

Enthusiast
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-21-2017
Message 14 of 23 (507 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Hi Randiw:

 

Thanks for your response and Happy New Year.  If it helps, I have another data point.

 

I have an older Oppo universal player (BDP-80) which worked fine (SACD's included) when connected to a wired Samssung receiver/amplifier.  That Oppo has the same problm with the Samsung soundbar as does the UBP-X800.

Moderator
Posts: 262
Registered: ‎03-10-2014
Message 15 of 23 (485 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

[ Edited ]

Hello Elvis5963,

 

Happy New Year.  Sorry for the delay due to the vacation holiday.

 

The Samsung HW-K950 soundbar does not have any indication of supporting either SACD format nor DSD copy protection.

User Manual: http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201703/20170320130155174/HW-K950_ZA_161227.pdf

Marketing Site: https://www.samsung.com/us/televisions-home-theater/home-theater/sound-bars/hw-k950-za-hw-k950-za/

 

The Copy Protection is not bypassed just by setting PCM output, HDMI standards do not allow for that.  You would be able to get around that if you had an Optical Audio Output, but the UBPX800 does not have an Optical Output.  

 

Sony Soundbars currently do not allow for the Copy Protected SACD DSD playback, and this is indicated by the comments in our user manuals with:

  • The HDMI IN 1/2/3 jacks do not support audio format that contains copy protections, such as Super Audio CD or DVD-Audio.

 

This is the main reason that I provided you the original work around with the CD Layer of the SACD disc.

 

I've been testing SACD discs that I have and I have consistently been able to replicate NO audio conditions when the settings are:

[HOME] > Setup > Music Settings > Super Audio CD Playback Layer > Super Audio CD

 

And I have had OK audio conditions when the settings are: 

[HOME] > Setup > Music Settings > Super Audio CD Playback Layer > CD

 

I've been testing the grant-lee phillips mobilize Super Audio CD disc with SACD / CD layers.  Do you know if your discs have both the SACD and CD layers?  If not, then the SACD would still not be able to be played to your Samsung Soundbar.

 

 

Additional followup:

Based upon your feedback during the holidays, it sounds like you are still not getting any audio with SACD.  After you change the settings with the [HOME] > Setup > Music Settings > Super Audio CD Playback Layer, you will get a message that states:

"Before playing a hybrid disc, be sure to re-insert the disc."

 

If you do not open and close the disc tray, no change will occur and you will continue to have no audio condition.  A disc eject is required before changes occur and playback would be possible.  Please confirm if you did this before attempting playback and if you continued to get a NO audio condition.

 

Finally, I wanted to confirm two additional items with you. 

 

First, you mentioned "cannot handle regular CD audio discs or SACDs."  I've been addressing the SACD aspect, but there shouldn't be any Copy Protection nor settings that would impact your playing of Compact Discs (CD).  Can you confirm if you cannot play any CD discs?  I've tested multiple without any issue.

 

Second, you mention "When I hit play, the TV screen shows the progress of the tracks being played, but no sound emanates."  Could you confirm that after the changes the on screen display status?  Specifically in the upper right corner you should see a music note followed by audio format.  Additionally in the bottom left (just after the Green play arrow), it indicates the media format. 

 

For example I get the following with the Super Audio CD layer setting (No Audio Condition):

DSD 2ch 2.8MHz/1 bit and Super Audio CD

 

For example I get the following with the CD layer setting (OK Audio Condition):

Stereo 44.1 kHz/16bit 1.4 Mbps and CD

 

 

Also the Marantz NR1608 is a reciever and would most likely be able to support Copy Protection, I'm not sure why you would have to change to LPCM.  You would have to look at the full specifications.  Testing under multple Sony Receivers has had no problem with SACD discs played through the UBPX800.

 

Thank you,

Chris

 

 

Enthusiast
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-21-2017
Message 16 of 23 (442 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Chris: Thanks so much for your comprehensive post. Let me try to unpack it.

 

First, I wish to clarify that the issue does amount to the fact that I cannot play SACD’s. Despite some miscues I had along the way, I CAN play regular CD’s and the CD layer of a hybrid SACD.

 

Now, I will respond to your specific questions and suggestions.

  1. Samsung web site links you posted: when I clicked the link for the manual, it led to a dead end. The link to the marketing material led to an active site, but I couldn’t find any reference to SACD support.
  2. “The Copy Protection is not bypassed just by setting PCM output, HDMI standards do not allow for that.” As the consumer, I have no idea why this is so, and what it even means.
  3. “You would be able to get around that if you had an Optical Audio Output, but the UBPX800 does not have an Optical Output.” If that is true, why did Sony omit the optical input?
  4. “Sony Soundbars currently do not allow for the Copy Protected SACD DSD playback” So it’s not just Samsung – even Sony Soundbars suffer from this limitation?  I’ve been playing SACD’s for 15 years. This problem with soundbars seems like a step backwards.
  5. You used the word “currently” – are there any plans/hopes for addressing this in the future?”
  6. “The HDMI IN 1/2/3 jacks do not support audio format that contains copy protections, such as Super Audio CD or DVD-Audio.” DVD-Audio has copy protection too?  Why does it not have the compatibility problems that SACD has?
  7. Workaround with CD and CD layer – while I did get to the point that even normal CDs were causing problems, after I re-set the player to factory settings, that problem went away.
  8. “Marantz NR1608 receiver” – I don’t have that – that belongs to Random V, another participant in the thread.

Chris, thanks again and I look forward to your response.

Expert
Posts: 330
Registered: ‎07-28-2017
Message 17 of 23 (425 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

I got some info from a company that makes boutique audiophile equipment and they explained the SACD issue in detail.

Chris is correct that Sony (who largely controls the SACD standard) has implemented copyright protection in both DSD streams and LPCM streams for SACD. My source stated that a Sony chip is present on virtually all HDMI boards that can handle SACD transmission and receception. The expressed purpose of this chip is encrypting and decrypting the SACD audio stream and can function as a DAC to covert the signal to analog. If this chip isn't present in a receiving device, you will not hear the SACD content even though the stream is being received. Unlike LPCM sent from DVDs and CDs, it requires decryption from a Sony licensed chip. SACD transmissions do not function like other audio transmissions. Why does a TV have SACD decryption skills and a soundbar doesn't befuddles the mind. That's one for Samsung to answer.

That being said, the consumer isn't necessary aware of how this is impliment unless you do some digging. Since the X800 doesn't do optical out, it's a lost cause for SACD in your current setup.

For Chris to imply that the solution is to playback the CD layer of a Hybrid SACD is a little cynical and defeats the purpose of buying a SACD in the first place. This of course explains in part why SACDs never really took off. Cost, limited content, and licensing requirements when the industry was moving to lossy, cheap, and higher availability music.

I'm impressed that Chris came back. Generally, Sony guys come in, drop a link to a webpage and never return. When you ask followup questions, they never return. Now if he could pay attention to who said what, I would be in awe.
Moderator
Posts: 262
Registered: ‎03-10-2014
Message 18 of 23 (364 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

[ Edited ]

Hello Elvis5963,

 

Thank you for clariftying that both CD and CD Layer of hybrid SACD work correctly, this would have been extremely worrisome if it did not.  Your feedback and comments point to the Samsung Soundbar not supporting the SACD layer copy protection.  Everything appears to be working on the UBPX800 side correctly.  I cannot speculate concerning other manufacture

 

Thanks for the feedback on the Samsung web link. There was an unneeded space added when I copied the link that threw it off.  I've corrected the link. Concerning your other feedback, as far as I can tell there are no compatibility issues on the UBPX800 with SACD, other than the soundbar equipment not supporting it.

 

============================

Hello Random_V,

 

"solution is to playback the CD layer of a Hybrid SACD is a little cynical and defeats the purpose of buying a SACD in the first place.

 

Playing the CD layer is a workaround for customers that do not have equipment that supports the SACD copy protection (Samsung HW-K950 soundbar for this case).  This isn't the best case for the end consumer, but this is the limitation of the audio equipment, not the UBPX800 not functioning correctly.

 

Thank you,

Chris

 

 

Enthusiast
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-21-2017
Message 19 of 23 (359 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Hi Chris:

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Unfortunately, I tink the cynicism of Random V is justified.  We now have the classic situation of 2 manufacturers, each pointing the finger at the other, and the customer is out of luck.  I have been troubleshooting these same issues with Samsung Customer Support, and their bottom line was: it's the fault of the Sony player, not the Samsung sound bar.

 

You said even Sony Soundbars do not support the SACD's.  If I had bought a Sony soundbar to go with my Sony player, who would Sony have passed the buck to then?

 

Is there ANY Sony (or other brand) soundbar that works with SACD's?

Enthusiast
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎12-21-2017
Message 20 of 23 (296 Views)

Re: Sony UBP-X800 can't play audio CDs or SACD's

Chris:  any response to my post?

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