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Expert
Posts: 237
Registered: ‎03-01-2013
Message 1 of 17 (4,368 Views)
Accepted Solution

Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Just received my F-5 from Sony after the firmware upgrade. (Not bad, took a week including the shipping both ways)

Noticing a glitch in the display information in the viewfinder. 

Even when the camera recording is set to an HD format, the viewfinder displays this "4K 1920x1080" information.  (Ok, I know most DPs would not bother to have this display line cluttering their VF, but I switch between HD and UHD fairly often, so I like to know just what I'm shooting-then I simply hit the display button on the viewfinder for a clean look)

FWIW.

Richard Boghosian
Bogh AV Productions
USA
Expert
Posts: 1,474
Registered: ‎11-20-2012
Message 2 of 17 (4,358 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

[ Edited ]

Rick,

 

You're actually looking at two different pieces of information, that just happen to be juxtaposed close enough that they look like one display.  The first part will either be 4K, or 2KC (for 2K center crop), or 2KF (for 2K full frame).   This tells you what part of the sensor is being used to generate the video image.  And then just to the right of that display you'll see another another display that tells you the dimensions of the recording format that is being recorded.   It might show 1920x1080, 3840x2160, etc. depending the format you're using.  So, even if you are recording 1920x1080, the image itself might still be generated from the 4K full sensor, thus the 4K display.   Once you understand what they are telling you they are both helpful, but it's too bad Sony didn't put some kind of separator between them.

Expert
Posts: 237
Registered: ‎03-01-2013
Message 3 of 17 (4,355 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Thanks Doug, as usual, you are right on top of these cameras
Richard Boghosian
Bogh AV Productions
USA
Expert
Posts: 416
Registered: ‎04-03-2013
Message 4 of 17 (4,229 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Hi, Doug,

 

I've some questions that I've been wanting to ask for some time for clarification on these settings.  You have a clear understanding of these settings and since it's related to the subject of this thread, I'll ask you, here.

 

The questions relate to how these scan settings have evolved over the various firmware updates from the beginning 'til now.  In the early days, we had 4K recording formats which were derived from a full 4K sensor scan data.  In 2K and HD recording mode, we could choose between full scan and centre crop scan.  In other words, we had two scan choices when recording in 2K or HD.  However, we had a problem in 2K or HD recordings of seeing moiré-type artefacts.  We were offered the 2K OLPF to correct the artefacts issue.

 

Now, in version 8 firmware, and according to the wording of your note above, we appear to have three choices for scanning formats when recording in 2K or HD, namely, 4K, 2KC and 2KF.  Is this more apparent than real?

 

Are there actually three scanning modes, now available, in the F55 and in F5s with the 4K option installed.  Are 4K and 2KF different from each other?  If so, please explain.  And, does one of them eliminate the need for the 2K OLPF?

 

Best regards,
Will

Expert
Posts: 2,485
Registered: ‎11-21-2012
Message 5 of 17 (4,215 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Will,

 

There have always been three scan modes for 2K/HD since day one! The only thing that has changed is the text in the VF.

 

Scan mode 1: 4K also called Normal
Available in: 4K up to 60p, 2K/HD up to 60fps, 4K up to 120fps with AXS-R7.
Uses: every pixel of the full 4K sensor area. When shooting 2K/HD this 4K worth of info is down-sampled.

 

Scan mode 2: 2K Full
Available in: 2K/HD. One is forced to use it (or 2KC) when shooting S&Q over 66fps.

Uses: something like every other pixel from the full 4K sensore area and sums them together (I can't remember the correct wording for exactly what it does). Can cause moire without the 2KOLPF.

 

Scan mode 3: 2K Center

Available in: 2K/HD. One is forced to use it (or 2KF) when shooting S&Q over 66fps.

Uses: every pixel of the centre 50% of the 4k sensor area.

 

So, basically you've already answered your own question. You wrote all of this, just in a different way. Your only confusion may be if you didn't realise that 4K/Normal could (in fact, should) be used from 2K/HD at framerates 1-60.

 

A basic version of this is on page 28 of the latest manual. Also, page 77.

Expert
Posts: 2,485
Registered: ‎11-21-2012
Message 6 of 17 (4,214 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Regarding 2K Full,

 

From: https://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/2k-Center-Scan-vs-2k-Full-Scan/m-p/305320#M14202

 

In HFR mode, adjacent pixels or the same colour are summed (side by side and above/below on alternate lines) in groups of 4. This is the same for blue pixels, green pixels on the blue lines, red pixels, and green pixels on the red lines. This halves the effective horizontal resolution from 4K to 2K and also halves the vertical resolution.

So the 4K sensor is effectively scanned as a 2K sensor - BUT all pixels are used, there is NO line skipping or pixel binning. The charge from all pixels is used.

The reason for re-mapping the 4K sensor as a 2K sensor is to readout all the information off the sensor in HFR mode. i.e. Less data in a faster time!

As far as I am aware, the same is applied for 2K Full Scan Mode (selected in System > Base Setting > Imager Scan Mode).

The reason for this option is I guess to offer 2K RAW recording, with significantly reduced bit rates and subsequent storage, if 4K resolution is not required.

In this instance, the optional 2K Optical Low Pass Filter would be recommended in order to minimise ailiasing artefacts.

 

and from: https://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/2k-Center-Scan-vs-2k-Full-Scan/m-p/306182#M14274

 

When shooting 2K XAVC but not 2K raw you want to use Normal Scan. In Normal scan the entire 4K imager is used and the HD or 2K XAVC derived from the 4K image. In these modes there is virtually zero aliasing as you are capturing a 4K image, then electronically down sampling the de-bayered image.

 

When shooting 2K raw and using 2K Full then the 4K sensor is read as a 2K sensor by binning or combing pixels. This means the sensor is now a 2K sensor, so there is extra aliasing unless you change the OLPF. 2K and HD derived from 2K Full Scan will also have more aliasing unless you change the OLPF. A further note is that in 2K Full Scan the 2K and HD is derived from De-bayered 2K so there will be a resolution drop compared to "Normal" 4K scan.

Expert
Posts: 1,474
Registered: ‎11-20-2012
Message 7 of 17 (4,149 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

Will, it looks like videosoul has saved me the time of writing a reply.  Thank you.

 

I only have one thing to add, and that is that I personally don't think the 2K OLPF is necessary.  A couple of years ago I had a loaner for a few days and no matter how hard I tried I could never create a shooting situation where it made a noticable difference.  I shot a lot of A vs. B tests and I could just barely see a very slight difference in a couple of them if I squinted at the monitor just right.  I'm not saying it might not make a difference in the right situation, but I couldn't create that situation even when I was trying my best to do it.  When you factor in the the hassle of swapping it in and out, plus the expense of buying one, I can't recommend it.

 

 

Expert
Posts: 182
Registered: ‎02-13-2013
Message 8 of 17 (3,636 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

That's really good to hear. I've always wondered if I was missing something by not owning the 2k OLPF but I guess not.

 

But I do have one question in regards to your testing with it. Did you test full scan 240fps raw with and without it? I imagine that the full raw image is where the difference would become noticeable.

Expert
Posts: 1,474
Registered: ‎11-20-2012
Message 9 of 17 (3,633 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

It's been more than two years and I don't recall the details of the testing I did on fine detail fabric, news print, skin, grass, and other subjects.  But I did post some footage shot with the OLPF.

 

 

Expert
Posts: 2,286
Registered: ‎11-23-2012
Message 10 of 17 (3,559 Views)

Re: Version 8 firmware VF display glitch

[ Edited ]

My experience to Doug's is different. I believe the 2K OLPF makes a clear difference when shooting full scan HFR of full scan 2K. You will get aliasing and moire on hard edges and areas of fine detail. I've seen many a slow-mo shot of cars or other man made objects where there is noticeable and objectionable aliasing around hard edges, for example the edge of a car windscreen will have jaggies along its lenght or colored moire as it moves. I've also sen many examples of foliage, grass and crops exhibiting moire patterns. Of course if you shoot center scan then these issues go away.

 

It really depends on what you shoot and how in focus it is, shallow DoF will minimise any problems as anything even slightly out of focus most likely won't aliase. Faces and people, unlikely to get a problem. Architecture, cars and shiny objects more likely to have problems.

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